Unfiltered Friends

Living with OCD w/ Phebe Lou

• Chris Thompson • Episode 33

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[Supdaily]:

Hello, unfiltered friends. I feel like OCD is a subject that you hear about that people frankly overuse improperly. And I wanted to sit down with Phoebe here and like have a true understanding of at least her experience of OCD and how it shows up. So without further ado, Phoebe, hello, how are you?

[Phebe Lou]:

Hey, I'm good,

[Supdaily]:

Hey,

[Phebe Lou]:

how are you?

[Supdaily]:

good, good, good. So. I mean, I feel like OCD, I hear it so often.

[Phebe Lou]:

Mm-hmm.

[Supdaily]:

And I can imagine for someone who has been diagnosed with OCD, hearing people kind of frivolously use it has got to be a little frustrating at times. Is that an accurate statement?

[Phebe Lou]:

Oh yes, very accurate. It feels very invalidating a lot of the time.

[Supdaily]:

So I hear like, oh, like I'm so OCD, I cleaned a lot today, or I'm so OCD, things are color coded. Can you explain

[Phebe Lou]:

Mm-hmm.

[Supdaily]:

the difference between that OCD and the way OCD shows up for you?

[Phebe Lou]:

Yeah, for sure. So first of all, there are so many different subtypes of OCD and there's like a range of how it can affect a person. So basically, like that can be very valid for someone that can be someone's something that someone with OCD actually suffers with. However, that's not all it is. And

[Supdaily]:

Mm-hmm.

[Phebe Lou]:

I think people have taken that and have run with it. But anyways, so typically I do want to start off by saying that I'm not a professional in any means. I'm not like a therapist or anything like that. So all of this comes from my knowledge and like, you know, my experiences and stuff like that. But yeah, so they're definitely... The way that I like to explain it is... It's called obsessive compulsive disorder for a reason. So if you enjoy to clean, if you enjoy cleaning because it's like satisfying to you, then that can't be OCD because OCD is compulsive for a reason. You feel like you have to complete a compulsion for some kind of reason. And typically that's like fear based. So fearing that something bad's gonna happen to you, something bad is gonna happen to a loved one. you know, so for people to say that like, oh, I'm so OCD, because I just have to have everything clean, straight and organized. It's like, that's, that's not actually what OCD is. Now there is something called obsessive, I want to say it's obsessive personality disorder. I honestly don't know much about that. But I will say I've heard that typically people who have that more side of OCD that typically that stems from. like obsessive personality disorder versus actual obsessive compulsive disorder. Now that's not to say that like if someone, you know, seriously suffers with that part of OCD that that's any less valid than, you know, my version of OCD. But it does typically get taken and used in a way that's not, you know, that's not, it, you know, creates stigma, misconceptions and stuff.

[Supdaily]:

It doesn't like take over like the I think the way it's been explained to me is like the difference between someone who just enjoys cleaning and someone who has OCD connected to the cleaning is the person who doesn't have OCD connected to it. It doesn't like take over their life. It

[Phebe Lou]:

Exactly.

[Supdaily]:

doesn't like impact their well being. So that will be the be able the way to differentiate between if someone just likes to be clean and someone has OCD connected to cleaning.

[Phebe Lou]:

Exactly.

[Supdaily]:

So I didn't realize how many different types of OCD, even just doing research, was it cleaning OCD, harm OCD, relationship OCD? How many types of OCD are there out there that you're aware of?

[Phebe Lou]:

Oh boy, there's so many. There's gender identity OCD. There's sexual orientation OCD.

[Supdaily]:

How do you become obsessive compulsive with gender identity?

[Phebe Lou]:

So I will say that's not one that I experience, but I do experience or have experienced sexual orientation OCD and typically, typically when you have one subtype, you more than most likely have like two to three. That doesn't mean that you have them at one time, that just means that you typically have like a theme going on. So a lot of the people that I talk to with sexual orientation OCD, experience gender identity OCD as well. So gender identity OCD, I think there's also another abbreviation for it, is basically where you are obsessing about like if you're, you know, the wrong gender or, you know, things like that. So.

[Supdaily]:

So how does sexual orientation OCD show up for you? Like what thoughts happen or what actions

[Phebe Lou]:

Yeah.

[Supdaily]:

happen when you

[Phebe Lou]:

Yeah.

[Supdaily]:

have that?

[Phebe Lou]:

So I'm 23 now. A lot of my OCD, I wasn't diagnosed until last year. So, but I thinking back on it since I was diagnosed, I can recall moments when I was when I did have OCD, but I just didn't know it yet. So a lot of my OCD. mainly surfaced around 16.

[Supdaily]:

Mm-hmm.

[Phebe Lou]:

That was also when I started my first, what I call my first real relationship with my now fiance. But so around that age, sexual orientation OCD was one of the first ones that I, one of the first themes that I experienced. And basically how it appeared for me was like, I couldn't be around any of anybody of the same gender. I couldn't be around any people part of the LGBTQ plus community. It got to the point to where I couldn't even leave my house simply because I was so scared of being triggered in some way, which how triggers show up for me might not be the case for the next person with sexual orientation OCD. But for me, I couldn't make eye contact with women. I would be scared that I would somehow find them attractive and that that would secretly mean something about me. And then I would just spiral into, what does that mean about me? What does that mean about who I am? And the point about having a subtype of OCD or having OCD, period, is that... like your obsessions are ego dystonic, meaning they do not align with your core like beliefs and who you are as a person. So being that I had sexual orientation OCD and also being a young teenager figuring who I am and like, you know, figuring out my sexual orientation period, you know, there's a lot of pressure on, on who I am and figuring all that out and to have that on top of that extra stress on top of that. you know, it's a lot.

[Supdaily]:

Mm-hmm.

[Phebe Lou]:

So.

[Supdaily]:

I mean, I hear I and I know that you actually covered this so you you're versed in it What you're describing to me, you know someone who is afraid of even making eye contact with someone of the same gender

[Phebe Lou]:

Mm-hmm.

[Supdaily]:

It sounds semi connected to homophobia

[Phebe Lou]:

Mm-hmm.

[Supdaily]:

meaning just like fear fear of homosexuals essentially what's the difference between homophobia and what you experience with sexual sexual OCD.

[Phebe Lou]:

Yeah, that's a really great question. And often those with sexual orientation OCD or SOCD is what we commonly call it. We often get confused for being homophobic. And that's actually quite opposite for us because we love people. We love the LGBTQ. I have no issue with anybody part of the LGBTQ. LGBTQ, sorry. The... I can't really explain in detail the difference because I'm not homophobic. So I'm like, I don't really know why they...

[Supdaily]:

But

[Phebe Lou]:

why one...

[Supdaily]:

what's

[Phebe Lou]:

yeah.

[Supdaily]:

the fear? What is the fear when it comes to that? Can you

[Phebe Lou]:

The

[Supdaily]:

identify

[Phebe Lou]:

f-

[Supdaily]:

it?

[Phebe Lou]:

I would say the fear is just feeling like I'm trying to think of how to describe it. The fear is that you aren't who you say you are. So it's kind of hard for me to explain, especially to someone who doesn't have OCD. Um,

[Supdaily]:

Yeah.

[Phebe Lou]:

for those who do have OCD might understand what I'm like, understand what I'm saying. What I'm saying. This can sound controversial, but I'm not meaning it to be at all. So like people who are. transgender, you know, they feel like they're in the wrong body, right? I I like to describe sexual orientation OCD kind of feeling similarly. I'm not trying to compare at all Those are totally like two separate things and I'm not trying to invalidate either of them but that's kind of how it feels to have sexual orientation OCD because you feel like you feel like you know, your your mind your OCD is trying to tell you these things that like oh you are gay because you looked at that person's boobs, you know, or like you are gay because

[Supdaily]:

Mmm.

[Phebe Lou]:

you had like a groan your response that must mean something. And versus when when really all of that is ego dystonic. And you know, that's not necessarily going off of like, who you really are inside if that makes any sense at all.

[Supdaily]:

So like if you look at someone of the same gender, maybe you find them to be an attractive person, or you're just like looking at them in general, you get these intrusive thoughts that make you question your own sexuality, and then there's an eternal turmoil surrounding that. Does that

[Phebe Lou]:

Exactly,

[Supdaily]:

sound accurate?

[Phebe Lou]:

exactly. And sexual orientation, OCD, I do want to say as well. It doesn't just involve, you know, someone who is, you know, straight or whatever, fearing being gay. It also includes people who are, you know, lesbian or whatever, afraid of maybe they're actually straight. So. Because we used to go by homosexual OCD, but then sexual orientation OCD became a thing, and we use that instead because that's more inclusive, and that includes

[Supdaily]:

Mm-hmm.

[Phebe Lou]:

every orientation.

[Supdaily]:

Yeah. Describe to me what an intrusive thought is when it pertains to OCD.

[Phebe Lou]:

So an intrusive thought is completely unwanted. It's something that typically carries a lot of fear and a lot of anxiety, and it's not something that someone enjoys having. And I know right now, especially on social media and TikTok, there's like a theme where like, oh, I just wanna act on my intrusive thoughts. So I'm gonna cut my hair today. Like

[Supdaily]:

Mm-hmm.

[Phebe Lou]:

that's not intrusive, that's impulsive. Like that's.

[Supdaily]:

Okay, yeah.

[Phebe Lou]:

And that can feel so, you know, like, what are you talking about? Like, if I acted on my intrusive thoughts, I'd be in jail.

[Supdaily]:

Yeah. Yeah,

[Phebe Lou]:

So.

[Supdaily]:

yeah, it's just like something you like, want to do and decided not to think about it that much versus something you didn't want to do and you did anyway.

[Phebe Lou]:

Mm-hmm, exactly. And intrusive thoughts are, are, everybody with OCD, I'm sure would agree, is like our intrusive thoughts are nothing we would ever act on, nothing we would ever want to act on, because it's not who we are.

[Supdaily]:

Mm hmm. Something that you talk about on your page quite often is relationship OCD. Can you describe what relationship OCD is and the intrusive thoughts that happen when you experience it?

[Phebe Lou]:

Yeah, so relationship OCD is pretty much exactly how it sounds. It's, it's, um, OCD surrounding relationship, um, your relationship. And typically that's, that's my main theme that I experience. And that typically is around like, Oh, you know, what if I'm not in love anymore? Um, what if he's not the one? What if I'm meant to discover myself and be single? You know and

[Supdaily]:

Yeah.

[Phebe Lou]:

maybe that means I shouldn't be with him So like those would be more of like the OCD thoughts that would that would go along with that

[Supdaily]:

I mean, like you, I was looking at one of them, like you had some intrusive thoughts that were like, you don't deserve to be happy, something's wrong with you. You

[Phebe Lou]:

Mm-hmm.

[Supdaily]:

have an urgency to seek reassurance, but this is something that I also experience quite often. What's

[Phebe Lou]:

Yeah.

[Supdaily]:

the difference between me experiencing it and you, someone who's diagnosed experience it, experiencing

[Phebe Lou]:

Yeah,

[Supdaily]:

those things.

[Phebe Lou]:

so everybody has doubts. Everybody, you know, it's completely normal and okay for anyone to have any of these thoughts. However, it kind of goes back to what you said earlier, like it's when you become obsessive about it and it controls your life, like, like it becomes a cycle. So for OCD, you have the obsession, then you have the compulsion. You need to go into a compulsion. in order to relieve that anxiety. And then you will find something else, because that's only temporary, because

[Supdaily]:

Mm-hmm.

[Phebe Lou]:

compulsions don't do you any good, it does you harm. And then you'll find, you might get temporary relief by completing a compulsion. And then you just find something else to obsess over, and then the cycle continues. So

[Supdaily]:

Yeah.

[Phebe Lou]:

everybody can have these thoughts, however, Like sending you into the cycle is what makes it OCD. That makes sense.

[Supdaily]:

So does it go from like you have the obsession and then the compulsion and it can just be cyclical and happen over and over again?

[Phebe Lou]:

Exactly. Exactly.

[Supdaily]:

How do you interrupt that? If somebody is starting to experience that cycle, or when you're experiencing that cycle, what do you do to get yourself out of what feels like a pretty harmful and damaging thing?

[Phebe Lou]:

Mm-hmm. It's a really good question. So it takes a lot of mind, mindful awareness, and a lot of practice doing so. So for OCD, the number one treatment or form of treatment for OCD is what is called Exposure and Response Prevention Therapy. For short, we typically call it ERP. That's what it is. And so what ERP is, is you're basically like exposing yourself to your fears, like the fears behind your OCD, and you're sitting with it without completing a compulsion as best

[Supdaily]:

Hmm.

[Phebe Lou]:

to your

[Supdaily]:

Hmm.

[Phebe Lou]:

ability. So with that can come a lot of like, you know, like I said, mindfulness and awareness of like, okay, do I really need reassurance right now? can I sit with this discomfort instead of doing so? Because the way that it's looked at is like, OCD is a scary movie. And if you're constantly like closing your eyes and avoiding watching the scary movie, that scary movie is always gonna be scary to you. However, doing ERP allows you to like, okay, you're moving your hands, you're making yourself watch a scary movie. And then what happens? The scary movie becomes not scary the more that you do it. And the

[Supdaily]:

Mm-hmm.

[Phebe Lou]:

more that you do it, because the scary movie is not scary anymore, that OCD being the scary movie, it dissipates.

[Supdaily]:

Mm hmm. Is there aspects? So I've done quite a bit of therapy. I did mostly like EMDR therapy, so dealing with a lot of trauma. But then I went into cognitive behavioral therapy, which was basically just trying to disrupt my spiral before it happens. You know, I had a habit of a lot of personalization. So I'd make things about me that weren't really about me. And I would have to have presence of mind and questions that I asked myself to disrupt that spiral because In my experience, at least with what I've gone through, once that spiral gets to a certain point, it's very, very difficult to get out of. Do people with OCD

[Phebe Lou]:

Mm-hmm.

[Supdaily]:

also have a similar process of disrupting their spiral?

[Phebe Lou]:

Most definitely, I mean, it's really, really hard, especially in the moment to disrupt that cycle. It definitely is possible. And that's why I tell people, when you practice ERP therapy, do it imperfectly. Don't expect yourself to do it perfectly or else you're not gonna do it right. It's not gonna work. You have to allow yourself to do it imperfectly. Because there's an all or nothing mindset with OCD. It's very, we have a very black and white mindset. So that can look like, you know, oh, I have to either do all the way this way, or I have to do it all the way this way. I'm having a really good day, but then something slightly inconvenient happens, that means my entire day's messed up. Like it's all bad.

[Supdaily]:

Mm-hmm.

[Phebe Lou]:

So that's why I like to tell people, you know, do practice ERP therapy imperfectly, because that'll allow you to like. be kind with yourself and be able to disrupt that cycle.

[Supdaily]:

Yeah, that's that's it's literally on my cognitive dissonance homework, the black and white thinking. You know, in you ask, like for me, there's like a series of questions that I had that I would ask myself in order to, like really challenge whether this is a black or white situation, I can imagine it's got to be really frustrating not being able to see shades of gray in that

[Phebe Lou]:

Mm-hmm.

[Supdaily]:

is.

[Phebe Lou]:

Yeah.

[Supdaily]:

Is OCD a lifetime thing like that's forever going to be with you? Or is it something that you can? I don't know. I don't want to say curable. I don't know how to

[Phebe Lou]:

Yeah.

[Supdaily]:

say this question. But like, is it forever?

[Phebe Lou]:

add completely here to the question you're trying to ask. Unfortunately, there's not a cure for OCD, at least not yet, but basically there's maintenance. So that's what ERP

[Supdaily]:

Mmm.

[Phebe Lou]:

therapy is for. And we even do CBT therapy like you're talking about as well. ERP and CBT are quite similar.

[Supdaily]:

Mm-hmm.

[Phebe Lou]:

I don't know much about CBT though, so I can't really speak on that part of it. But yeah, so those are used for maintenance. It more so, of course, depends on the person because we aren't a one size fits all and that's what I like to say a lot. And for example, like me, even though I've had sexual orientation OCD, I don't really have it anymore because I did ERP, because I forced myself to keep my eyes open and watch the scary movie, that subtype has no effect over me anymore. because it doesn't

[Supdaily]:

Hmm

[Phebe Lou]:

scare me anymore. So that's how I kind of look at it. Like. I will always, I like to say, at least me personally, I will always have OCD, however my perception of it will change.

[Supdaily]:

Hmm

[Phebe Lou]:

So like a common OCD subtype is postpartum OCD, you know, which obviously occurs after one has a child. And you know, I'm scared as a woman to have a child because I'm afraid that I might develop that subtype. But I can't know because that hasn't happened yet. So that very well might be something because we are constantly growing, we're constantly evolving. That might be something that I will experience, you know? But the subtypes that I have right now might go away as I continue facing them, I guess you could say.

[Supdaily]:

Mm

[Phebe Lou]:

Hopefully

[Supdaily]:

hmm. Mm hmm.

[Phebe Lou]:

that

[Supdaily]:

So it's just

[Phebe Lou]:

answered

[Supdaily]:

like

[Phebe Lou]:

your

[Supdaily]:

a.

[Phebe Lou]:

question, so.

[Supdaily]:

Yeah, well, it's just I think it's like a lot of other things where like this is just how you show up in the world and you find the healthiest way to navigate with

[Phebe Lou]:

Yeah.

[Supdaily]:

who you are, you know, it's not who

[Phebe Lou]:

Yeah.

[Supdaily]:

you are. It's an aspect of of who you are.

[Phebe Lou]:

Exactly, like you can definitely live happily with OCD. I mean, OCD is a very debilitating disorder, but it doesn't have to take your life away, you know, it doesn't have to destroy your life. You can still live a very happy, satisfying life even with it.

[Supdaily]:

Mm-hmm, and you got diagnosed pretty recently

[Phebe Lou]:

Mm-hmm. I got diagnosed last January. Mm-hmm.

[Supdaily]:

last January, what did you think was going on with you before your diagnosis? Like, did you have thoughts about like, hey, something's going on here? Like, what were those thoughts if you had them?

[Phebe Lou]:

I honestly just thought it was anxiety because I grew up a very anxious child. Um, like you, I have a lot of trauma as well. Um, you know, still that I'm, that I'm still working through, of course. Um, but yeah, I just thought it was anxiety. Um, I would have like periods of time where I would, I laugh with my fiance about it and like, I look like I'm seizing up on the floor sometimes because I will. be in such an awful state of mind where I feel so out of control mentally and physically that like I'm just rocking myself. I'm just

[Supdaily]:

Yeah.

[Phebe Lou]:

like pacing back and forth. So I've had moments like that since childhood. And so I always just figured that it was just anxiety. And for years I saw talk therapists and I remember before COVID I even asked my my therapist about OCD and he asked me like five questions. He was like, okay, if you move the remote and someone moves it, but that's not where you moved it, does that bother you? I was like, no. And he was like, well, then you don't have OCD. Yeah, yeah.

[Supdaily]:

It's like such a limited like that's what you hear. Like when you hear OCD,

[Phebe Lou]:

Mm-hmm.

[Supdaily]:

you think like, oh, I clean

[Phebe Lou]:

Yeah.

[Supdaily]:

a lot

[Phebe Lou]:

Do

[Supdaily]:

or

[Phebe Lou]:

you

[Supdaily]:

whatever.

[Phebe Lou]:

wash your hands? Yeah. Yeah.

[Supdaily]:

I mean, and which which is an aspect

[Phebe Lou]:

Yes.

[Supdaily]:

of a certain type of OCD. But I don't think people I mean, I learned I was today years old when I realized there was so many subtypes. So I'm assuming that and that was one of the thoughts that I had. It's like, man, there's so many different types. Maybe it gets a bit confusing. but in reality, it helps really get specific about the things that you experience OCD about. You know, it helps. How does getting that specific help you?

[Phebe Lou]:

It puts a face to it, really, for me. It makes me feel like, like, like I have an answer. Like I know that it's, that it makes it more real. It makes it more, I know, I don't wanna say what's wrong, but like it helps me put a face to.

[Supdaily]:

The thing you're

[Phebe Lou]:

to

[Supdaily]:

struggling

[Phebe Lou]:

what feels

[Supdaily]:

with.

[Phebe Lou]:

like, yeah, to what feels

[Supdaily]:

Yeah.

[Phebe Lou]:

like the devil in me, like what feels like a monster, you know?

[Supdaily]:

Yeah, it gets it has to be it has to feel sometimes like, you're just so out of control. And that's got to be really frustrating, you know, where you're just like, I like when I have when my battery when we were talking about introversion before, like when my battery is done, I so wish that I could show up for everybody and go out and have a good time. It's just not my reality. And I find myself getting frustrated. with not being able to show up how I'd like to or how other people would like me to. Do you face that as well?

[Phebe Lou]:

Yes, and it can make it even harder because it can make you irritable, it can make you, because like you feel so out of control and nobody can see that when they look at you. Like you know,

[Supdaily]:

Yes.

[Phebe Lou]:

nobody can see what you're dealing with inside and so to already be feeling that way but then have OCD on top of it, it's rough, it's

[Supdaily]:

Mm-hmm.

[Phebe Lou]:

rough and then it's also, it's hard on top of that to Like recently, I'm not sure how, if you've seen about it, but recently something got out about like, someone had said that OCD was a demon in you. And that

[Supdaily]:

Mmm.

[Phebe Lou]:

was like, wow, you know, to already feel like, you know, OCD is a monster. It feels like a demon. But to say that,

[Supdaily]:

Mm-hmm.

[Phebe Lou]:

you know, people with OCD, that OCD is like a demon within you, like you were like, we're possessed. Like we were already fearing that like, are we possessed? You know?

[Supdaily]:

Yeah.

[Phebe Lou]:

than to have like someone's

[Supdaily]:

Is that a thought that you have? Like that you're possessed?

[Phebe Lou]:

Um, it's definitely one that has crossed my mind, but it's not like, it's not one that I commonly, you know, ruminate over. No.

[Supdaily]:

Yeah. I guess it really just breaks down to wishing you had a bit more control over yourself.

[Phebe Lou]:

Yeah, that is typically entirely what it is. OCD, you know, you, at least for me, a lot of it stems from me feeling like I'm out of control. Like, for example, I can't drink alcohol anymore.

[Supdaily]:

Hmm.

[Phebe Lou]:

I can't drink alcohol. I can't even drink coffee because when I drink coffee, it triggers my... I'm not too familiar with like harm OCD, but I would imagine that that's what it is. Like I can't be alone. I can't be around like chords even because I'm like, oh my God, I'm afraid that I might do something to myself even though I would never do that. That's why it scares me so much because I would never

[Supdaily]:

Mmm.

[Phebe Lou]:

do that. So that's why it scares me. So yeah, it's like it feels like OCD took away a lot of a lot of that for me.

[Supdaily]:

I was watching a video that you made about, you were talking about edibles.

[Phebe Lou]:

Mm-hmm.

[Supdaily]:

And

[Phebe Lou]:

Hehehehe.

[Supdaily]:

I am, so I'm somebody, I live in Colorado. We

[Phebe Lou]:

Oh,

[Supdaily]:

do, we,

[Phebe Lou]:

I love Colorado.

[Supdaily]:

it's wonderful here. And I'm a daily weed user. It helps my brain stop, because my brain will just like keep going. But you were talking about how it's not really an option for you. Did I read that

[Phebe Lou]:

Mm.

[Supdaily]:

video correctly? And I have a theory and I want you to tell me if this feels accurate. I've noticed that people, when they feel like they aren't in control, weed will exacerbate that because they don't feel like they're in control of what's happening and maybe that will escalate your feeling of OCD in that situation. Does that feel accurate to you?

[Phebe Lou]:

I definitely agree. For me, like I don't live in a state where that is legal. So like Delta-8 is, however. So that's what, like

[Supdaily]:

I've never

[Phebe Lou]:

I

[Supdaily]:

tried it.

[Phebe Lou]:

really,

[Supdaily]:

No, I've

[Phebe Lou]:

I've

[Supdaily]:

had

[Phebe Lou]:

always

[Supdaily]:

the real

[Phebe Lou]:

wondered.

[Supdaily]:

stuff. California, I've been told Delta 8 isn't quite the experience,

[Phebe Lou]:

Really?

[Supdaily]:

but I have a

[Phebe Lou]:

Mmm.

[Supdaily]:

feeling though, if you have trouble with Delta 8,

[Phebe Lou]:

I'm

[Supdaily]:

that

[Phebe Lou]:

sorry.

[Supdaily]:

if you had edibles here, that it would be even more so intense of an experience.

[Phebe Lou]:

I would probably die.

[Supdaily]:

Yeah,

[Phebe Lou]:

No.

[Supdaily]:

let's not do that. No.

[Phebe Lou]:

But yeah, so like I've been prior to trying an edible, I was already like using Delta egg quite frequently to help my anxiety. And it was great. It felt like, you know, like is this what it's like to be normal? So just like see a thought pop up in my head, like visualizing a thought popping up in my head and not feeling like I need to. react to it versus, you know, when I'm every day I feel like I have to react to it.

[Supdaily]:

Mm-hmm.

[Phebe Lou]:

So trying that edible first off I took way too big of a bite.

[Supdaily]:

That's literally like everybody who has the edible experience does that they either take too big of a bite or they take too little of a bite and take way more and then it

[Phebe Lou]:

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[Supdaily]:

all kicks in at the same time. I have been I remember sorry. We're going to tell a weed story for a second. I remember taking way too much and then I just could not stop laughing to the point where I had to put my head. in

[Phebe Lou]:

Oh my

[Supdaily]:

the

[Phebe Lou]:

gosh.

[Supdaily]:

freezer because my head was so hot from laughing and then the world was spinning and you just really know getting off

[Phebe Lou]:

Oh

[Supdaily]:

that

[Phebe Lou]:

my

[Supdaily]:

ride

[Phebe Lou]:

gosh.

[Supdaily]:

it's like not a good time so don't

[Phebe Lou]:

That's

[Supdaily]:

don't

[Phebe Lou]:

crazy.

[Supdaily]:

feel bad that's everybody has that edible experience and that's how you learn but i'm

[Phebe Lou]:

Yeah.

[Supdaily]:

there's an extra layer for you

[Phebe Lou]:

Yeah, I'm like, that's why I can't, that's why I can't drink anymore is because when I did, when I was really drunk one time, I, I don't even quite remember what triggered me. I think, I don't even remember what triggered me, but something triggered me and I, I think what it was, was I drank two different kinds of alcohols that you're not supposed to drink together or

[Supdaily]:

Mmm.

[Phebe Lou]:

whenever I feel sick, it triggers my OCD. That's just how I am. I don't know if that's for everybody else too. And so then that triggered my, because like what happens when I feel out of control is my OCD tries working in overdrive to be in control.

[Supdaily]:

Ah.

[Phebe Lou]:

And so that can be really, really difficult for me. So when I am drunk, you know how like people are like, I'm not drunk, like walk in a straight line, like. I even, when I first got drunk on my 21st birthday, I told my fiance, I was like, watch me walk in a straight line, I'm not drunk. I was very visibly drunk.

[Supdaily]:

Yeah.

[Phebe Lou]:

But that's pretty much how like, like my OCD works in long run. It's like, let's like, we're, we are in control 100%. Or if you're not in control, what's going on? But anyways, going back to the whole edible thing. So I have health OCD. I don't have it as severely as other people might, but it is one of my subtypes. So I know when you eat an edible, it can already make you feel aware of your body, like sensations and things

[Supdaily]:

Mm-hmm.

[Phebe Lou]:

like that. So imagine, okay, okay,

[Supdaily]:

Okay.

[Phebe Lou]:

imagine having health OCD where you're already focusing on your heartbeat. You're focusing on... you know, internally what could be going on. Like for me, anytime I have a headache, I'm worried it's a brain tumor.

[Supdaily]:

Wow.

[Phebe Lou]:

Yeah, it's hard. It's, and it also makes it hard because it's like, I avoid going to the doctors because I don't wanna know that it's, that it could be a brain tumor, but then it's either I avoid the doctors or I go there too frequently because I want reassurance that it's not something like some crazy, you know. brain tumor or cancer or something.

[Supdaily]:

So you can, if you, but if you ignore it, does your brain let go of it? Or does it then obsess over the fact that you don't know?

[Phebe Lou]:

Oh, I take mental screenshots, that's what I call it.

[Supdaily]:

Mental screenshots.

[Phebe Lou]:

Like even if I, if something like that doesn't bother me in the moment, I like to say I take a mental screenshot, I save it for later.

[Supdaily]:

so you can be upset about it later.

[Phebe Lou]:

Yep,

[Supdaily]:

That's

[Phebe Lou]:

yep.

[Supdaily]:

awful. Yeah,

[Phebe Lou]:

Yep,

[Supdaily]:

that's

[Phebe Lou]:

yeah,

[Supdaily]:

not a good time.

[Phebe Lou]:

it definitely is. So when I took too much of the edible, I remember, like, you know, it comes into, it hits you at different stages, it like works itself up. So it felt great at first and then it just kept going. It kept going and then next thing I knew, my head was spinning. I could, it felt like I could feel my organs moving. Like it felt like I could feel the blood flowing through my heart and that freaked me out. And like it felt like I could focus on any part of my body and I could feel just that part of my body. So that like completely freaked me out. Send me into. a complete spiral. And I remember I, I remember I told, I told my fiance, it was like, I don't feel good. And then he held me and we watched, we watched a Barbie movie. That was so funny. Um, and I just literally kept my eyes shut the entire time until unfortunately it got to the point where I got physically sick because I was so mentally messed up and I just needed it like out of my body. And I actually thought I was gonna die. I thought I was gonna die, but then I was like, can't tell my parents, because they don't know I'm doing this stuff.

[Supdaily]:

Yeah.

[Phebe Lou]:

So, yeah, it was

[Supdaily]:

I

[Phebe Lou]:

an

[Supdaily]:

mean,

[Phebe Lou]:

adventure for sure.

[Supdaily]:

yeah, I went see everything that you're describing to me is exactly why I enjoy taking edibles. Like my whole body tingles and

[Phebe Lou]:

Yeah.

[Supdaily]:

I just release to the experience, but if you have a need

[Phebe Lou]:

Mm-hmm.

[Supdaily]:

for control over that, I could see that being like not a

[Phebe Lou]:

Exactly,

[Supdaily]:

fun

[Phebe Lou]:

exactly.

[Supdaily]:

ride.

[Phebe Lou]:

My best friend, she like I gave it to her because she she was the one that got me wanting to try it because she loves she's exactly yeah she's exactly like you and she she likes it for that reason so I was

[Supdaily]:

Mm-hmm.

[Phebe Lou]:

like okay well that sounds amazing you know but then no it was not

[Supdaily]:

Mm-mm. Mm-mm.

[Phebe Lou]:

not for me I was like I cannot even look at it I can't even no

[Supdaily]:

Okay,

[Phebe Lou]:

it's like

[Supdaily]:

well,

[Phebe Lou]:

after you get really yeah it's

[Supdaily]:

that's how you learn,

[Phebe Lou]:

like

[Supdaily]:

you know? You learn what's for you and what's not for you, you know?

[Phebe Lou]:

Yeah, you get really drunk and then you realize, no, Pink Whitney, not for me anymore. Jello shots, goodbye.

[Supdaily]:

pass on that.

[Phebe Lou]:

You can't look at it anymore.

[Supdaily]:

No, I mean, I'm 41. I can't drink because my body doesn't it takes three days to recover. So

[Phebe Lou]:

Oh no.

[Supdaily]:

you're probably doing yourself a service by skipping out on that experience because when I was 23, it was yeah,

[Phebe Lou]:

Oh no.

[Supdaily]:

like a fish like a fish and it was probably damaging. I saw okay, I saw a video and I've never you know, when again, I don't have a whole lot of information. before this, this is why I'm talking to you, because I wanna educate myself and other people. I saw a video of you at 5 a.m. having an episode that your mouth was chattering, you were shivering. That is a result of OCD? Can you explain

[Phebe Lou]:

Mm-hmm.

[Supdaily]:

what happened there?

[Phebe Lou]:

So I don't recall what sent me into the spiral other than it was like an argument that I had with my partner. Oh, yeah, it was an argument that I had with my partner. And in that moment, I felt so like disappointed in him and disgusted by a relationship that I actually felt okay with not being with him. And that's completely a complete valid response to have to an argument. But in that moment, because I felt okay with it, that sent my relationship OCD into like, my God, does that mean that you finally found your truth? Blah, blah, blah. And so then that sent me into like a panic, which then led to that spiral, that video that you saw, because... And when I get to that point, I literally, this is every time I have to tire myself out to the point mentally where I literally just like fall asleep. I will be up until like seven, eight o'clock in the morning sometimes just literally like, I look like I'm just not even there because I'm not. I'm not. It feels

[Supdaily]:

Mm-hmm.

[Phebe Lou]:

like the OCD just takes over sometimes and it will look very scary. I'm so glad that my fiance... It's just, he's just, he's amazing for being able to look at me like that and still think that I'm great.

[Supdaily]:

Yeah, I mean, how do you know how do you know how do you know if it's your relationship OCD or it's just like a legitimate thought that you're having like, it's got

[Phebe Lou]:

Mm-hmm.

[Supdaily]:

to be a little confusing to know which is like for me, I don't know whether it's my trauma speaking or being informed, speaking. So how do you know the difference between this is OCD or this is legitimate, a legitimate thing that I need to focus on?

[Phebe Lou]:

Yeah, that's a really great question. It kind of depends on where that's kind of stemming from because if it's coming from like an OCD needing to have an 100% answer, like it goes back to the black and white that I was talking about before. If it's stemming from that urgency, then you're not going to get an answer for it. You're not going to get, you're not going to find an answer for it because it's not there. So with that, it's mainly accepting the possibility that it could be either or, or it could be both. And nobody likes to hear that it could be both.

[Supdaily]:

Mm-hmm.

[Phebe Lou]:

So for me, that argument was very eye-opening for me and my relationship, because I was like, we have things to work on. That argument wasn't okay, but the OCD took it and ran with it. even though

[Supdaily]:

Hmm.

[Phebe Lou]:

like that was an example of something that did actually need to be worked on. So it's kind of like, it's kind of hard to answer a question like that because with when it comes to OCD, there isn't really a of course, if it's abusive, if it's an abusive situation, that's completely different. However, like if it's not, it's kind of hard to it's kind of hard to answer that question because there's no certainty with OCD.

[Supdaily]:

You just go through. You just have to decide

[Phebe Lou]:

You just

[Supdaily]:

to stay,

[Phebe Lou]:

have to,

[Supdaily]:

stay in

[Phebe Lou]:

mm-hmm,

[Supdaily]:

it and go through with it, I

[Phebe Lou]:

exactly,

[Supdaily]:

guess.

[Phebe Lou]:

you just have to sit with and accept the possibility, you know? And that

[Supdaily]:

So

[Phebe Lou]:

sounds

[Supdaily]:

that

[Phebe Lou]:

really

[Supdaily]:

sounds

[Phebe Lou]:

hard.

[Supdaily]:

it's tiring and also terrifying like that.

[Phebe Lou]:

Yeah, and when people talk about, you know, oh, well, what if it's my intuition? What if it's my gut? People with OCE, or at least me specifically, I can't listen to my gut because my gut will misfire. You know, it's not a reliable source for me.

[Supdaily]:

How do you trust yourself then? Ever.

[Phebe Lou]:

I trust my values.

[Supdaily]:

Hmm. Can you elaborate on that? What does that

[Phebe Lou]:

I,

[Supdaily]:

mean?

[Phebe Lou]:

so for me that would mean like. It's like my end goal. What do I, like I, it's, it's a, it's kind of hard to explain. I've never had someone ask me that. It's like

[Supdaily]:

Mm-hmm.

[Phebe Lou]:

what I choose to perceive, I guess, about myself or, you know, whatever situation. So I can choose to like either, you know, let the OCD take it and run with it, or I can choose to like, you know, that's not me. That's not, you know. That's not who I am. Um, and listen to my values. Like for example, something I recently came out about on my, on my social media was that I suffer with pedophilia OCD. And it was really hard for me to open up about that because that sounds terrifying, right?

[Supdaily]:

What is that?

[Phebe Lou]:

Pedophilia OCD is basically where you are obsessing over the fear of like, if you could be a pedophile or you know, having pedophilia thoughts like that. And that's, it's really hard to talk about because it's a really taboo

[Supdaily]:

Yes.

[Phebe Lou]:

subtype to have, you know?

[Supdaily]:

Mm-hmm.

[Phebe Lou]:

So going back to, you know, my values, I can have this thought and be like, oh, you're attracted to that child and be like, no, I care so much about children. I love children to the point to where like, like I know that's my value. So I'm going to listen to my value, and

[Supdaily]:

Hmm.

[Phebe Lou]:

I'm not going to listen to the OCD, if that makes sense.

[Supdaily]:

Yeah, it's, I mean, what was the word that you used to say that it's not, the thought is not like who you are? What was

[Phebe Lou]:

Mm-hmm.

[Supdaily]:

the term that you used at the beginning of the interview? I forget what it was called.

[Phebe Lou]:

Um, it's not a core value. Is that what?

[Supdaily]:

No, there was like a term that you used that said that like, the thought doesn't match like what you

[Phebe Lou]:

Oh,

[Supdaily]:

truly want.

[Phebe Lou]:

it's ego dystonic.

[Supdaily]:

So that would be an example of an ego dystonic thought where like, you're worried about it being a possibility, but you've never actually had those thoughts. Does that feel

[Phebe Lou]:

Exactly.

[Supdaily]:

accurate? Okay,

[Phebe Lou]:

Exactly.

[Supdaily]:

yeah. It's, God, that's,

[Phebe Lou]:

Yeah.

[Supdaily]:

it almost, I'm like, I'm having majorly like empathetic feelings right now where it's just like, I can't imagine. how tough it has to be to

[Phebe Lou]:

Yeah.

[Supdaily]:

not be able to literally trust anything that you think, know when it's gonna happen, how it's gonna be triggered. I mean, like, that's gotta be so massively exhausting, especially because the thoughts that you're having aren't even matching the desires that you have. Like,

[Phebe Lou]:

Exactly. And

[Supdaily]:

I...

[Phebe Lou]:

so then you have cups where like, or, or, you know, products that companies push out and be like, Oh, I'm, you know, what was, what was one? It was like, It was like, I'm so OCD, but then it said obsessive cup disorder because Stanley cups are huge right now. So like, or I'm so, I'm so OCD, obsessive Christmas disorder. And so it's really hard to see companies pushing products like that because then like you said, like we're over here, like OCD is not fun. It's not quirky.

[Supdaily]:

No.

[Phebe Lou]:

It's not something I enjoy having.

[Supdaily]:

Hmm.

[Phebe Lou]:

You know, it kills me every day. It affects my life every day.

[Supdaily]:

Yeah.

[Phebe Lou]:

So to see people promoting those products or pushing those products like company, company wise, it's like, feels super invalidating.

[Supdaily]:

Yeah. Man, that's got, yeah, I can imagine that's gotta be very difficult to witness. So you have been with your current partner for seven years. Did I do the math right on that? Seven years, you guys are engaged. How does OCD affect your romantic relationship?

[Phebe Lou]:

Well, for starters, I'm a very bad perfectionist. I'm a very

[Supdaily]:

Oh

[Phebe Lou]:

bad

[Supdaily]:

yeah.

[Phebe Lou]:

perfectionist with myself. So typically when you're a perfectionist with yourself and you like to control your surroundings because that, at least for me, that helps me feel more in control of myself mentally if I have my physical surroundings in control, if that makes sense. So typically the biggest factor is I feel like I have to control him and how he does things because it has to be how I do things in order for it to be correct. So that's a big way it also affects my sex life. It can make it really hard to enjoy sex, to even desire it because you're, like for me, my OCD is mostly mental. So a lot of my compulsions involve mentally checking myself, which would be like checking myself for feelings, checking myself for arousal even. Um, so it can make it really hard, you know, to be intimate because you're, you can be so busy. Like, am I actually enjoying this? Do I actually love him? Is this actually, you know, am I doing this because for the right reason, you know, so

[Supdaily]:

Hmm.

[Phebe Lou]:

I'd say those are like the biggest, the biggest things that are how it affects me still.

[Supdaily]:

Mm-hmm. How does your fiancee show up for you when you're experiencing those moments? Like what are the ways, say someone is listening to this and their partner is struggling with some form of OCD. How do they best show up for you?

[Phebe Lou]:

So the biggest one is just educating themselves on OCD. Like we were talking earlier, he knows me so well that he can look at me and know what's going on. Or know when I'm triggered or know when I need to like step away or something like that. For example, we were at a restaurant, we were at a buffet restaurant and it got so busy and I was focusing on like, my OCD was really triggered at that time. And I remember I was focusing so much on like, do we look like a happy couple? Because there were so many couples and I felt like all of them were looking at me somehow. And so I was like feeling a unconscious need to compare and like, do we look happy? Do we look in love to other people? blah, blah, blah. And so I remember like, we were holding hands, he was sitting across from me and I just like disassociated. And he looked at me and he told me after we left because he he got me out of there, he knew we had to leave. And he told me he's like, I saw

[Supdaily]:

Mm-hmm.

[Phebe Lou]:

it just click on your head, that you just because like one second I was looking so in love with him, I guess is the way he worded it. And then I looked away, I disassociated, I came back. and I looked at him like a stranger, apparently. And that hurt because I know when that happens sometimes and I try so hard to prevent him from seeing that, but because he knows me so well, he's caught on. He's caught on, he's

[Supdaily]:

Mm-hmm.

[Phebe Lou]:

too smart.

[Supdaily]:

Yeah.

[Phebe Lou]:

But what was the, I'm sorry, I completely went off track.

[Supdaily]:

Yeah, it's how do people like you say educate

[Phebe Lou]:

Oh,

[Supdaily]:

yourself? Like how do people

[Phebe Lou]:

yeah.

[Supdaily]:

show up for people with OCD?

[Phebe Lou]:

Yeah, so the education of course is very important. Like the more that the spouse will be able to educate themselves on the OCD cycle, educating themselves on what is my spouse's like, you know, triggers, you know, for example, it could be like checking to make sure the stove is off, checking to make sure the front door is locked. and knowing not to encourage the OCD cycle. So that can be like reassuring them. Reassurance seeking is a very common compulsion. You know, telling them like, for example, a hidden way of like seeking reassurance can even be like saying something and being like, and reading their reaction for reassurance. I do

[Supdaily]:

Hmm.

[Phebe Lou]:

that a lot. It's a very sticky compulsion.

[Supdaily]:

I do that. It's not compulsive,

[Phebe Lou]:

Or...

[Supdaily]:

I would say, but that's definitely a really common

[Phebe Lou]:

Yeah.

[Supdaily]:

thing for me. And it comes with maybe more like an anxious attachment.

[Phebe Lou]:

Yeah, or like Googling is a very common compulsion for me. So sometimes like the way that I'll be like, oh, you know what, it won't be a compulsion if I ask him to Google for me, but that's still a compulsion. So him being able to know that that's my goals to compulse, then he'd be like, no, I'm not gonna do that for you. No, I'm not gonna give you that reassurance. I love you and I'm here to support you.

[Supdaily]:

Wow.

[Phebe Lou]:

And I'll hold you, but I'm not going to encourage those to de-cycle. And doing that sometimes and hearing that from them is really hard, but I acknowledge in that moment that, you know what, you're right. You're right.

[Supdaily]:

So it's just being knowledgeable on moments where he would be enabling you to

[Phebe Lou]:

Exactly.

[Supdaily]:

be a, cause like, I don't know, like you keep saying things, I was like, well, I do that, I do that. Like

[Phebe Lou]:

Hehehehe

[Supdaily]:

I Google because like, I don't understand why people don't at this point. It's like all the information you could ever need is in your pocket all the time. What's the difference between me Googling for information and you having a compulsion to Google?

[Phebe Lou]:

So a compulsion can be anything. It depends on your, it depends on the reason why you're doing it. That can make it

[Supdaily]:

Like

[Phebe Lou]:

a compulsion.

[Supdaily]:

I'll Google

[Phebe Lou]:

So

[Supdaily]:

something.

[Phebe Lou]:

yeah.

[Supdaily]:

I'm Google something because I want to know the information. But then once

[Phebe Lou]:

Exactly.

[Supdaily]:

I have the information, I put the phone away. Do you go down like a rabbit hole and like you Google for a long period of time?

[Phebe Lou]:

Mm-hmm. So if I know that I can... hold on my... Sorry, I told my fiance not to come back for a few hours. He's trying to come in through the door. Is there any

[Supdaily]:

It's okay.

[Phebe Lou]:

way we can like take a break for just one second so I can tell him to like screw off basically?

[Supdaily]:

Yeah,

[Phebe Lou]:

Okay,

[Supdaily]:

yeah.

[Phebe Lou]:

sorry, hold on one second.

[Supdaily]:

Okay. How we doing guys? How we feeling about this?

[Phebe Lou]:

Okay, sorry, can you hear me now? Okay,

[Supdaily]:

Yes, I can hear you.

[Phebe Lou]:

I kicked him out. I was like, okay, don't come back until three o'clock. And he was back, so I had to tell him

[Supdaily]:

Can you

[Phebe Lou]:

to

[Supdaily]:

bring

[Phebe Lou]:

go

[Supdaily]:

your

[Phebe Lou]:

away,

[Supdaily]:

camera

[Phebe Lou]:

basically.

[Supdaily]:

down like a little bit more?

[Phebe Lou]:

Yeah, is that better?

[Supdaily]:

Cool. Yep, much better. All

[Phebe Lou]:

Okay.

[Supdaily]:

right.

[Phebe Lou]:

But yeah, so, yeah, so it goes back to like your reason behind it. So with Googling, for example, like you were saying, if I know I can Google something, and be satisfied with just one answer, or if I'm doing it for educational-wise, educating myself on something, and I know that I can just read that and be fine, then that's perfectly okay to Google. However, sorry, I'm out of breath. However, if you are Googling and you have, I call it the OCD urgency, it's like... Sometimes for me, I'll read really quickly because that's the OCD urgency. I need to keep reading, keep reading, keep scrolling. So if you are unsatisfied with that answer, so it could be like, am I in love with my partner? Okay, you're not just gonna find one answer under that. So you might be like, how do you know whether you're in love? Okay, how do you know whether this is toxic, whether that's toxic? So you can, so it will create one after the other. One more question, one more question after that, one more question after that. And that's where it's now compulsive because you're like,

[Supdaily]:

Yeah.

[Phebe Lou]:

you know, if that makes sense.

[Supdaily]:

Yeah, kind of like a rabbit hole, just keep going. And then you,

[Phebe Lou]:

Exactly.

[Supdaily]:

not sure where you end up. What are the most common misconceptions you hear about OCD?

[Phebe Lou]:

that you're clean and organized with it.

[Supdaily]:

Mm-hmm

[Phebe Lou]:

So I'm definitely not that you have to wash your hands a lot or that you're like really clean. And of course, like we said in the beginning, that can definitely be, all of these can definitely be like OCD related. Let's see. That depending on like what the subtype is, like if we're talking about SOCD, that that would mean that you're in denial of your thoughts or like you're just in denial of yourself. Or even with relationship OCD that you're, I guess a big part is that you're in denial, like you just don't wanna break up, you know?

[Supdaily]:

Hmm

[Phebe Lou]:

or something like that, or you just don't want to acknowledge that you're gay or like, whatever. So, but I think, yeah, the biggest misconception of OCD is that, is that you're, you got to be clean or organized to have it. You got to complete physical compulsions in order to have it. Those, I think, have to be the biggest

[Supdaily]:

Like

[Phebe Lou]:

misconceptions.

[Supdaily]:

turn the doorknob eight times before you leave or, you know,

[Phebe Lou]:

Flick the light

[Supdaily]:

which,

[Phebe Lou]:

switch eight times, you know

[Supdaily]:

yeah.

[Phebe Lou]:

things like

[Supdaily]:

Which

[Phebe Lou]:

that

[Supdaily]:

can be

[Phebe Lou]:

Yeah

[Supdaily]:

true, but

[Phebe Lou]:

Can

[Supdaily]:

there's

[Phebe Lou]:

be

[Supdaily]:

so many different subtypes

[Phebe Lou]:

Exactly

[Supdaily]:

that

[Phebe Lou]:

and I

[Supdaily]:

it's

[Phebe Lou]:

think

[Supdaily]:

not just like, OCD is just not one thing is what you're saying. It's not one thing, it can be so many different things.

[Phebe Lou]:

Yeah, and it can be tiring to explain OCD to people who do think that way because then once I'm like, yeah, I have pedophilia OCD, you know? Then they're like, you're fricking crazy. Like, that's,

[Supdaily]:

Yeah.

[Phebe Lou]:

you're mental. Like, you're just crazy. So it can be really exhausting for those of us that do have taboo thoughts, that do have taboo themes to even wanna like spin the energy. you know, saying, hey, that's not OCD. Like OCD is being fear of like this or that or this or that, because then they just look at you like, that's not OCD,

[Supdaily]:

Yeah.

[Phebe Lou]:

you know?

[Supdaily]:

And it's not even it's not even the fear that it's not even having like when you talk about the pedophilic OCD, it's not fear of having you know, it's it's fear of having inappropriate thoughts, not having the inappropriate thoughts. So people probably hear that and think that you're thinking that way. But really, you're just thinking about thinking that way. Does that feel accurate?

[Phebe Lou]:

I think so, I think so.

[Supdaily]:

Yeah.

[Phebe Lou]:

I mean, yeah, it's like, you know, you can even, I don't know much about, I wanna say this as a subtype, but I don't know what it's called, but it's basically where you have thoughts about your animals too. They can be sexual thoughts, you know, about your animals because

[Supdaily]:

Mmm.

[Phebe Lou]:

you love and care for your animals so much that the OCE will basically twist it and make it like something absolutely crazy that you would just never think

[Supdaily]:

Yeah,

[Phebe Lou]:

of.

[Supdaily]:

I think people

[Phebe Lou]:

So.

[Supdaily]:

treat it like a conscious choice too, which is probably

[Phebe Lou]:

Exactly

[Supdaily]:

why they

[Phebe Lou]:

like

[Supdaily]:

judge.

[Phebe Lou]:

we...

[Supdaily]:

It's like, it's not something that you just like, you just like, oh, I want to think about this today. It's I have no choice but to think about this today.

[Phebe Lou]:

Exactly.

[Supdaily]:

Yeah, you talked about being too much and that you've trained yourself to not be too much. What does that mean?

[Phebe Lou]:

I think that goes back to what made me start masking because growing up I, you know, I've, like I said earlier, I've always been an anxious child. I was always, I would always have these episodes even as a child. So I'd always be told that like I'm either being too loud or I'm being too quiet. So you know, growing up I created this coping mechanism where I'm like, you know, I just I'm a chameleon. I say a chameleon-fi myself because I like just reflect what people want to see for me. So that's kind of what I meant there by like, you know, I be too much. I'm too much sometimes.

[Supdaily]:

Something I always say to people, OCD or not, is if someone says that you're too much, they just mean for them. They don't mean in general. They are just,

[Phebe Lou]:

Yeah.

[Supdaily]:

first of all, they should be keeping that to themselves. Just excuse yourself. There's no need to bring someone down. So how does someone with OCD mask when they're having maybe a tough moment?

[Phebe Lou]:

I believe it would be them trying to create a version of themselves that they would imagine would be normal to them.

[Supdaily]:

Mm.

[Phebe Lou]:

That can look different for anybody really, just based on what they view normal to be.

[Supdaily]:

So what would you do to mask in that situation?

[Phebe Lou]:

I think it definitely depends on like the energy in the room. Um, like even the way that I verbally speak can be different compared

[Supdaily]:

Mm-hmm.

[Phebe Lou]:

to like one person to the other, like that's another way that I mask. Um, yeah.

[Supdaily]:

There was a girl I had on the podcast who is, she talks about autism and the way she would describe it was almost like her mask was an amalgamation of things that she saw around her. So even the way she would dress or a reaction somebody who had, it was like a combination. It seems like this is a common behavior in order to fit in from people who are not neurotypical across the board.

[Phebe Lou]:

Mm-hmm.

[Supdaily]:

Yeah.

[Phebe Lou]:

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, definitely. I mean, I'm not diagnosed, but I've always wondered if I could be under the spectrum in that way. So, mm-hmm.

[Supdaily]:

I mean, there's so much overlapping between, you know, ADHD, autism, OCD, any of these like, you know,

[Phebe Lou]:

Yeah.

[Supdaily]:

what do people call it? Neuro-spicy diagnosis,

[Phebe Lou]:

Yeah.

[Supdaily]:

you know, like,

[Phebe Lou]:

Yeah.

[Supdaily]:

it seems like there is so many bits of overlap. How do you, how do you tell the difference? Do you just focus on the main ones? Or do you just get diagnosed with all of it? It's got to be really confusing.

[Phebe Lou]:

Yeah, and it can make it hard to even want to seek help, to

[Supdaily]:

Mm-hmm.

[Phebe Lou]:

want to even seek answers because like it took me so long to get diagnosed with OCD and that's all that I'm right as of right now diagnosed with. So it's like to even think about trying to get diagnosed with other things it's like even possibly, you know, possibly it's like why try,

[Supdaily]:

Mm

[Phebe Lou]:

why try?

[Supdaily]:

hmm. Well, it also seems like the diagnosis surrounding a lot of these things in women is so much further behind than those diagnosis and men. Do you know why that is?

[Phebe Lou]:

I guess I couldn't really say. I mean, I feel like the way the world is today, at least the US, you know, I can't really speak for other countries, but I feel like a lot of people are more so, I feel like the world is more so built for men.

[Supdaily]:

Mm-hmm.

[Phebe Lou]:

And

[Supdaily]:

I mean,

[Phebe Lou]:

in my

[Supdaily]:

it's

[Phebe Lou]:

opinion,

[Supdaily]:

definitely patriarchal

[Phebe Lou]:

feels like,

[Supdaily]:

society for sure.

[Phebe Lou]:

yeah, so

[Supdaily]:

For

[Phebe Lou]:

that's

[Supdaily]:

sure.

[Phebe Lou]:

the only thing that I could really, that I would really think on that, I guess.

[Supdaily]:

Yeah, well that sucks.

[Phebe Lou]:

I

[Supdaily]:

I

[Phebe Lou]:

think

[Supdaily]:

have,

[Phebe Lou]:

we're getting better though.

[Supdaily]:

oh, 100%, I mean, I've been involved with those sorts of discussions for a very long time. I've used my social media for advocacy for a long time and it is getting better, but I just think. I mean, I'm the very beginning of the millennial generation and I can attest to the fact that the conversations around these invisible ailments was not a thing, you know, when I was younger. And the older the generations get, the less help that they have for that sort of thing. So it has been pretty beautiful watching your generation

[Phebe Lou]:

Yeah.

[Supdaily]:

come forward and like really normalize these conversations, but science is gonna take. way longer to catch up with

[Phebe Lou]:

Yeah.

[Supdaily]:

those things. Plus, our health care system is

[Phebe Lou]:

Oh my gosh.

[Supdaily]:

just just a disaster

[Phebe Lou]:

Yeah,

[Supdaily]:

because you can't

[Phebe Lou]:

that's the

[Supdaily]:

get

[Phebe Lou]:

whole

[Supdaily]:

help

[Phebe Lou]:

other

[Supdaily]:

for

[Phebe Lou]:

conversation.

[Supdaily]:

anything. There's like I knew someone whose job was to literally figure out how to not cover somebody. And when I when I went to find health insurance, finding health insurance with good mental health coverage was supremely difficult because they just don't take it seriously. And I'm not sure why

[Phebe Lou]:

Yeah.

[Supdaily]:

that is and I wish them the best on their journey. I'm just gonna, I'm gonna leave.

[Phebe Lou]:

Yeah.

[Supdaily]:

I'm going somewhere else, forget this.

[Phebe Lou]:

Right. I definitely want to say though that like, I feel like there are struggles that women more so have and there are struggles that men more so have. Like

[Supdaily]:

Mm-hmm.

[Phebe Lou]:

my fiance, for example, he suffers with clinical depression. So there's like, and I feel like there's a, there's a unconscious, I don't, I don't know the right word for what I'm thinking, what I'm trying to put into words. But like men have to be strong all the time. You know, men can't

[Supdaily]:

Yeah.

[Phebe Lou]:

show their emotions. you know,

[Supdaily]:

That's.

[Phebe Lou]:

things like that that I feel like are more acceptable for women. Um, so in that way, I definitely want to say that it's not just like, Oh, it's all about men, you know,

[Supdaily]:

I really do

[Phebe Lou]:

you know,

[Supdaily]:

appreciate

[Phebe Lou]:

versus women,

[Supdaily]:

you

[Phebe Lou]:

but.

[Supdaily]:

saying that. You're basically highlighting an example of how the patriarchy also harms men.

[Phebe Lou]:

Exactly.

[Supdaily]:

And I hope that conversation, that as someone who's a more sensitive person, who's been very public about sharing his mental health journey, it's extremely validating. So I really

[Phebe Lou]:

Exactly.

[Supdaily]:

appreciate you saying that.

[Phebe Lou]:

Yeah, it's really important. It's important for everybody. And I feel like if our country were to care just more about mental health, then

[Supdaily]:

Mm-hmm.

[Phebe Lou]:

we would be so much better off we would have we would just everyone would be a lot healthier in my opinion, I think. But I think like you said, you know, even though I'm I'm 23, you know, I when I was 16, there was no information on like OCD or anything to describe what I was feeling. I had no help. I was by myself figuring all this stuff out on my own. So now, you know, having a community, having a place where I now talk about my experiences with OCD and how I've gotten to this point and watching all these people just like, you know, say like, oh, I've been struggling with it for a month and you've been so helpful. And I'm like, that's amazing because I went years with no help. So

[Supdaily]:

Yeah.

[Phebe Lou]:

knowing that like now we've reached a point where at least mental health is starting to,

[Supdaily]:

Mm-hmm.

[Phebe Lou]:

you know, become more popular, I'm just amazed and it's so beautiful to me to even see how far my cat in the background,

[Supdaily]:

Your cat's just

[Phebe Lou]:

to

[Supdaily]:

been

[Phebe Lou]:

see.

[Supdaily]:

doing its thing the whole time, just having a party back there,

[Phebe Lou]:

I got

[Supdaily]:

making

[Phebe Lou]:

one

[Supdaily]:

biscuits.

[Phebe Lou]:

under the blanket too.

[Supdaily]:

Ha ha ha ha ha.

[Phebe Lou]:

Yeah, but to see, to see, you know, it gets to even where it is today, even though there's so much more. improvement needed. It's wonderful.

[Supdaily]:

Mm hmm. It's going to be a slow process. We got a lot of things to dismantle here. I

[Phebe Lou]:

Yep, I definitely

[Supdaily]:

have a

[Phebe Lou]:

agree.

[Supdaily]:

I have a few questions from my Patreon supporters. If you're down to answer those.

[Phebe Lou]:

Yeah, for sure.

[Supdaily]:

Yeah. So if you guys if you guys ever want to ask questions to guess that I have on Patreon dot com slash unfiltered friends, Yvonne wants to know, do you ever think things that will help you? Hope with OCD will be turned into new rituals that will feed your OCD.

[Phebe Lou]:

I mean definitely, you know, meditation can be a wonderful thing but then that can turn into a compulsion. You know, like I said earlier, everything can turn into a compulsion if you really try hard enough. It all depends on what your goal is behind what

[Supdaily]:

Mm-hmm.

[Phebe Lou]:

you're doing. So

[Supdaily]:

Yeah.

[Phebe Lou]:

yeah.

[Supdaily]:

How do you differentiate, though? Like, you're, you can't trust yourself, so how

[Phebe Lou]:

Yeah.

[Supdaily]:

do you differentiate it? Just do it?

[Phebe Lou]:

You just do it scared, man.

[Supdaily]:

Do

[Phebe Lou]:

You just

[Supdaily]:

it scared.

[Phebe Lou]:

like, you

[Supdaily]:

If you

[Phebe Lou]:

do

[Supdaily]:

take

[Phebe Lou]:

it scared,

[Supdaily]:

anything

[Phebe Lou]:

you

[Supdaily]:

away

[Phebe Lou]:

do it

[Supdaily]:

from

[Phebe Lou]:

unsure.

[Supdaily]:

this, I

[Phebe Lou]:

Do

[Supdaily]:

think

[Phebe Lou]:

it

[Supdaily]:

that's,

[Phebe Lou]:

scared.

[Supdaily]:

yeah, I think that's a, that's a, are tattoos ever a compulsion?

[Phebe Lou]:

That's a great question.

[Supdaily]:

Cause

[Phebe Lou]:

I got

[Supdaily]:

I

[Phebe Lou]:

this one.

[Supdaily]:

look, I, I just got my whole sleeve like redone yesterday.

[Phebe Lou]:

Uh...

[Supdaily]:

I'm in a lot of pain right now, but

[Phebe Lou]:

Oh,

[Supdaily]:

like

[Phebe Lou]:

I bet.

[Supdaily]:

I can imagine someone who has a compulsion for tattoos.

[Phebe Lou]:

Awesome.

[Supdaily]:

Like they just have gotta be head to toe.

[Phebe Lou]:

For me, I actually spoke about this on my TikTok when I got this one right here. It's so stronger than I was, and I got it for mental health. And I got it on impulse. I didn't really think much about it. And when I got it, like, I wasn't quite sure where I was gonna put it. I wanted my tattoo artist to decide because like she does it for a living. So, you know, so

[Supdaily]:

Mm-hmm.

[Phebe Lou]:

I left feeling. I felt I left feeling confident at first, but then like I doubted the whole because like OCD is nicknamed a doubting disorder. So then like

[Supdaily]:

Mmm.

[Phebe Lou]:

even now, even now having this this tattoo can be hard because I'm like, I felt like suddenly I was a changed person. I wasn't the person I was because I got a tattoo and it's so stupid. But like that's how it felt. Exactly. So

[Supdaily]:

I'm

[Phebe Lou]:

like

[Supdaily]:

like exhausted

[Phebe Lou]:

change.

[Supdaily]:

hearing that.

[Phebe Lou]:

Yeah. So like change can be very, very difficult. for

[Supdaily]:

Hmm.

[Phebe Lou]:

someone with OCD because of that.

[Supdaily]:

Hmm. Hmm. Hallie asks, what is the line between supporting someone through OCD and enabling negative behaviors?

[Phebe Lou]:

I love that question.

[Supdaily]:

I got smart people.

[Phebe Lou]:

I love that. I think it kind of goes back to, you know, I want to say like the end goal again, but enabling someone in a way that could continue the OCD cycle like, like, you know, Googling for them or closing the door, you know. That would be, that would definitely be enabling. But like supporting them in a way, I'm sorry, I'm like really trying to figure out how to answer that question.

[Supdaily]:

So can I give an example that might help you?

[Phebe Lou]:

Yes, please.

[Supdaily]:

So I dated somebody who had an anxiety disorder. And something that I made sure to do with her is when she was in a good place, she wasn't like suffering with her anxiety, that was when I asked her, what are the best ways for me to be there for you in those moments? And I just educated myself on. the best way to show up from her and her personal experiences while she was in a good state of mind to give me an answer. So maybe with you, it would be, you would educate them on what those behaviors look like for you and they learn as they go, what is a behavior that you are trying to stay away from and what is a way of just supporting you, maybe that.

[Phebe Lou]:

I definitely agree that. Thank you for taking what I was trying to say and

[Supdaily]:

Yeah.

[Phebe Lou]:

helping me with that. That really helped me a lot. I think for me that that reminds me of like, anytime that I, because self or well, self reassurance is definitely can be a compulsion. But what I meant to say was reassurance is one of my biggest ones. So when I'm like in a cycle, for example, like my health OCD has been. like a little spiked lately. My themes were just like, when one's not, when I don't feel triggered with one, it's like my OCE has a team meeting upstairs and they're

[Supdaily]:

Hehehe

[Phebe Lou]:

like, okay, what will trigger her today? This one, this one's not working? Okay, let's try this one.

[Supdaily]:

Mm-hmm.

[Phebe Lou]:

It's like the, yeah, so, you know, being that my health OCD has been spiked more, freaking out about like how my heart, like I've had some like muscle cramps, so I'll be freaking out like, oh my God, is this a heart attack? And then I would just go on and go on and go on and talk about like, but I've had this happen today. And then at lunch, I had this happen. And I'd be, you know, saying all this to my partner. And, but then after I'd be like, don't reassure me, like, don't say anything, just listen. And that's like, that's a way that he is able to like support me without, without enabling it, if that makes sense.

[Supdaily]:

Mm-hmm. That's something I had to learn just in general as a man in partnerships is men tend to try to trend to be solution based and a lot of times women just want you to listen. So I

[Phebe Lou]:

Mm-hmm.

[Supdaily]:

learned the phrase, do you want to vent or do you want solutions? And I allow

[Phebe Lou]:

Yes.

[Supdaily]:

them to tell me so that I know what mode they're in because you won't just know. So you

[Phebe Lou]:

Mm-hmm.

[Supdaily]:

just I think it's really just about you understanding your diagnosis, you understanding your categories, communicating that to your partner and just educating them as much as possible so that

[Phebe Lou]:

Exactly.

[Supdaily]:

they can best show up for you.

[Phebe Lou]:

Exactly.

[Supdaily]:

Because

[Phebe Lou]:

You know, we're not a one size fits all. Yeah.

[Supdaily]:

I can identify when something is happening. It's kind of like that, you'll see that TikTok trend where the girl is like, I want a divorce. And he's like, uh-huh. So what do you want? A chicken?

[Phebe Lou]:

What do you want to eat?

[Supdaily]:

Chicken delight. She was like, yeah, and all of a sudden it calms down. So he was able to identify

[Phebe Lou]:

Mm-hmm.

[Supdaily]:

that what she was saying wasn't really what she meant and redirect the energy to what the solution would be for her.

[Phebe Lou]:

Yeah, that's exactly, that's like my life all the time is he'll even be like, you know, is this, is this a moment where you need me to just listen or is this a moment where, you know, you, you want solution like, like you were saying, like,

[Supdaily]:

Yeah.

[Phebe Lou]:

or he'll be like, is this your OCD speaking or is this, you know, so

[Supdaily]:

And I'm sure there's going to be times where you don't have an answer for that.

[Phebe Lou]:

Yeah, I mean, there are times where I'm like, I don't know, I just know that it feels completely scrambled up in my head.

[Supdaily]:

So just

[Phebe Lou]:

So,

[Supdaily]:

be a safe space, like understand

[Phebe Lou]:

yeah.

[Supdaily]:

what that looks like for whoever you're interacting with.

[Phebe Lou]:

Exactly.

[Supdaily]:

Yeah,

[Phebe Lou]:

Exactly.

[Supdaily]:

that's just good partnership. Give your fiance a high five. He seems like a really decent dude. You got a good

[Phebe Lou]:

I will,

[Supdaily]:

one.

[Phebe Lou]:

he's amazing, thank

[Supdaily]:

Yeah.

[Phebe Lou]:

you.

[Supdaily]:

So if people are inspired by you and like wanna reach out to you, where's the best place for them to do that?

[Phebe Lou]:

So I have a TikTok and it's Phoebe Lu.

[Supdaily]:

Mm-hmm.

[Phebe Lou]:

That's where you'll see me most. I also have an Instagram, same thing. And then I do have a podcast called the Overly Obsessed Podcast, where I just pretty much treat it like a diary. I talk about my life, talk about my struggles, things that come up that I'm facing. So that's definitely another one. But yeah.

[Supdaily]:

Yeah, well, thanks for being on. Thank you for educating me. It's been majorly eye opening. I'm going to have to take a nap after this because I can't even imagine

[Phebe Lou]:

Me too.

[Supdaily]:

how hard that is to to, yeah, how to deal

[Phebe Lou]:

Yeah.

[Supdaily]:

with on a daily basis. But you seem to do it successfully and then you use your platform to help others. So thank you for doing that.

[Phebe Lou]:

Well, thank you and thank you for having me on and I most importantly want to just thank you for treating me like I'm human throughout this whole entire conversation that we've had because OCD can carry a lot of guilt and carry a lot of shame. So it's not something easy to talk about. So thank you for creating

[Supdaily]:

Yeah.

[Phebe Lou]:

a safe space for not just me but for clearly many other people as well.

[Supdaily]:

Yeah, awesome. Well, thank you for saying that.

[Phebe Lou]:

Yeah.

[Supdaily]:

OK.